...

Bet Wenger saw that one..

Should have gotten Andy Gray to explain the offside rule to the ref

That referee had a complete nightmare. Refereeing standards in the PL are at an all time low.

jak wrote:That referee had a complete nightmare. Refereeing standards in the PL are at an all time low.

How our goal stood is beyond me.. Shoulda got the bird back in.

So what did Cesc say to the officials? or according to Arsene what didn't he say?

QBVILLA wrote:So what did Cesc say to the officials? or according to Arsene what didn't he say?

That was interesting. Moyes referred to the OFFICIALS, Wenger referred to the REFEREE.

Whether he has or hadn't said anything on this ocassion (dunno about everrone else but i'm inclined to believe Moyes over Wenger) Fabregas seems to be getting a reputation as a right prick.Great player undoubtedly but he needs to rein it in before he ends up talking himself into a ban.

I haven't heard the reports that you're referring to but what I do know is that the referee was incompetent and that is bound to cause trouble.

Now seen the interviews read the reports.
Sour grapes from Moyes who NEVER has a go at referees, does he.
Must have been another Moyes who was charged by the FA following a game against Man U.
The offside decision last night was disgraceful and of course it's going to raise emotions. The referee was totally incompetent in the eyes of Moyes,Wenger and anyone else who has a basic understanding of the rules of football.

jak wrote:Now seen the interviews read the reports.
Sour grapes from Moyes who NEVER has a go at referees, does he.
Must have been another Moyes who was charged by the FA following a game against Man U.
The offside decision last night was disgraceful and of course it's going to raise emotions. The referee was totally incompetent in the eyes of Moyes,Wenger and anyone else who has a basic understanding of the rules of football.

You're missing the point here Jak.Fabregas has been involved in these incidents a little too often and you can bet that he'll get done in the near future as the authorities will be looking for him.Can't see how you can say it's sour grapes from Moyes who said it was offside and that the two Arsenal goals were down to errors by Everton.

jak wrote:I haven't heard the reports that you're referring to but what I do know is that the referee was incompetent and that is bound to cause trouble.

Who the feck do you think you are, Mr Wenger

I only saw the post match interviews but have just heard on the radio that Saha wasn't offside as Koscielny played the ball.You'd think both Moyes and Professor Wenger would know the offside rule, even that Sian Massey would know that and she's a bird

Poor as the ref was it was actually the linesman who should have raised his flag, immediately the ball was played in the direction of Saha who was at least a yard offside. The fact that Koscielny touched the ball after it was played makes no difference, when the ball was played Saha was offside, end of. You often see linesman raise their flag when a person is in an offside position but is not going to be the recipient of the ball - that's annoying cos the ref usually blows up - but last night there was only Saha to whom the ball was being played, he was offside the moment the ball left his team-mates' toe.
Yet again, extremely poor control of the game and WTF can we do to improve things if we can't use video evidence?
Nevertheless both linesman and ref were left in no doubt as to our feelings towards them - I trust neither will be chosen to be in charge of a top-level match in the near future.

If our captain is not allowed to question the ref/linesman who is?
I don't recall the likes of Roy Keane, John Terry etc holding back when they didn't agree with e refereeing decision and last night's decision-making was pretty poor throughout, especially, of course allowing an offside goal.
I want Cesc to fight our cause - he gets criticism for not being a "real leader" on the pitch - as captain he has the right to talk to the ref and if it includes telling him he's a load of bollox, well so be it. The lad cares - so do I!

jpr60 wrote:If our captain is not allowed to question the ref/linesman who is?
I don't recall the likes of Roy Keane, John Terry etc holding back when they didn't agree with e refereeing decision and last night's decision-making was pretty poor throughout, especially, of course allowing an offside goal.
I want Cesc to fight our cause - he gets criticism for not being a "real leader" on the pitch - as captain he has the right to talk to the ref and if it includes telling him he's a load of bollox, well so be it. The lad cares - so do I!

You raised the issue of respect in another thread.

Do you think that Fabregas shows respect towards officials on and off the field of play? Either by his seemingly constant questioning of decisions, abuse aimed towards them and attempts to fool them by diving to gain unfair advantages?

Do you think that Fabregas shows respect for his fellow professionals by brandishing imaginary cards and trying to get them booked? Or again by diving etc.?

Undoubtedly he's an excellent footballer but as captain of Arsenal he doesn't set a great example in my opinion.

Tilton wrote:

jpr60 wrote:If our captain is not allowed to question the ref/linesman who is?
I don't recall the likes of Roy Keane, John Terry etc holding back when they didn't agree with e refereeing decision and last night's decision-making was pretty poor throughout, especially, of course allowing an offside goal.
I want Cesc to fight our cause - he gets criticism for not being a "real leader" on the pitch - as captain he has the right to talk to the ref and if it includes telling him he's a load of bollox, well so be it. The lad cares - so do I!

You raised the issue of respect in another thread.

Do you think that Fabregas shows respect towards officials on and off the field of play? Either by his seemingly constant questioning of decisions, abuse aimed towards them and attempts to fool them by diving to gain unfair advantages?

Do you think that Fabregas shows respect for his fellow professionals by brandishing imaginary cards and trying to get them booked? Or again by diving etc.?

Undoubtedly he's an excellent footballer but as captain of Arsenal he doesn't set a great example in my opinion.

Since we don't know what "abuse" Fabregas is supposed to have used to the "officials" last night I'm not about to make any judgement - all I know is the match officials were p!ss poor and we could have been giving ManU another two or three points advantage at the top of the table as a result of their inability to control the match properly.
Yes, Fabregas made the card signal to the ref against Huddersfield, probably because one of his team had been shown a red card for an apparent last-ditch foul early in the game whereas a Huddersfield player, stopping Bendtner illegally in the penalty area was allowed to remain on the pitch - that's consistency right there. However, I agree it's not something I like to see but, again, it's understandable given the circumstances.
Diving? Well I wouldn't say Fabregas "dives", he went down a little easy against Birmingham but, then again he wasn't appealing for a pen so maybe he lost his footing as a challenge came in.
As captain of Arsenal Fabregas has the responsibility of looking after stuff on the field of play. If he's fighting for us I'm happy, if he's keeping schtum and letting everyone get away with whatever I'm not happy. I'm happy with Captain Cesc!

And the news is that nobody reported any special incident with Fabregas during or after the match so there is no follow-up to Moyes' claims of him being abusive. Could it just be that Moyes was trying to put the post-match focus on something other than his team's loss? Another storm in a tea-cup - people just love making something out of nothing, don't they?
If I were a cynic (who me?) I might think that there's a touch of resentment being shown towards The Arsenal. Was it always there? Probably, but since we weren't winning anything the slag-off could just be that - "No trophies!". Now that we might be winning something, or coming close to it other stuff starts to crop up. I read a match report late yesterdy evening on the Guardian website that pretty much said we were lucky, the Everton goal met the criteria of the latest offside rules, our equaliser followed a ball into the box which an Everton defender headed into Arshavin's path (Lucky Arsenal) and the winner was a gift. Today I noticed that the match report has been modified, it's now a dubious Everton goal (why thankyou) and Fabregas put the ball into Arshavin following his run (thanks again). OK, I'll accept Koscielny had a free header but he worked for it, coming in between players who were concentrating on other targets for the corner-kick.
If I look elsewher I see "ManU unbeatable" or "Great comeback", "Chelsea ready for a late challenge for the title" compared to Arsenal, where words like "weak" or "frail" are used, "No strength in depth" is another one. Let's see, eh?!

jpr60 wrote:Poor as the ref was it was actually the linesman who should have raised his flag, immediately the ball was played in the direction of Saha who was at least a yard offside. The fact that Koscielny touched the ball after it was played makes no difference, when the ball was played Saha was offside, end of. You often see linesman raise their flag when a person is in an offside position but is not going to be the recipient of the ball - that's annoying cos the ref usually blows up - but last night there was only Saha to whom the ball was being played, he was offside the moment the ball left his team-mates' toe.
Yet again, extremely poor control of the game and WTF can we do to improve things if we can't use video evidence?
Nevertheless both linesman and ref were left in no doubt as to our feelings towards them - I trust neither will be chosen to be in charge of a top-level match in the near future.

You're absolutely correct about the offside law, jpr. Saha was miles offside at the moment the ball was played.
It was an appalling decision.
Moyes accusations re Fabregas, have come to nothing.
Like you, I'm perfectly happy with our captain and if he gave the officials a bit of verbal about their performance, I don't blame him!!!!
Great comeback last night, a real battling performance. More of that please and who knows, we might just win something this season.
COME ON YOU GUNNERS !!!!!!!!!!!!

Tilton wrote:

jpr60 wrote:If our captain is not allowed to question the ref/linesman who is?
I don't recall the likes of Roy Keane, John Terry etc holding back when they didn't agree with e refereeing decision and last night's decision-making was pretty poor throughout, especially, of course allowing an offside goal.
I want Cesc to fight our cause - he gets criticism for not being a "real leader" on the pitch - as captain he has the right to talk to the ref and if it includes telling him he's a load of bollox, well so be it. The lad cares - so do I!

You raised the issue of respect in another thread.

Do you think that Fabregas shows respect towards officials on and off the field of play? Either by his seemingly constant questioning of decisions, abuse aimed towards them and attempts to fool them by diving to gain unfair advantages?

Do you think that Fabregas shows respect for his fellow professionals by brandishing imaginary cards and trying to get them booked? Or again by diving etc.?

Undoubtedly he's an excellent footballer but as captain of Arsenal he doesn't set a great example in my opinion.

Some great points made there Tilton.Nice to see JPR and Jak address them................

I'm just looking at the playing surface dished up at St. Andrews this evening.

villanfromluton wrote:

jak wrote:I haven't heard the reports that you're referring to but what I do know is that the referee was incompetent and that is bound to cause trouble.

Who the feck do you think you are, Mr Wenger

You could pass for Pat Rice if you lost 3 stone.

jak wrote:I'm just looking at the playing surface dished up at St. Andrews this evening.

C'mon Jak, i've always regarded you as a fair minded football fan.Tilton has raised some fair points regarding Fabregas. I don't think i've ever heard anyone question the lad's ability, IMO he's one of the best midfielders in Europe.However, he has been getting himself in the press for the wrong reasons as well and not just lately either.He strikes me as a bit of a spoilt brat.Granted you'll appreciate what he does well on the pitch but both you and JPR have always banged on about footballing principles.We've got Ashley Young at Villa who on his day is a fantastic player but his diving winds me right up and i've never been able to take players waving the imaginary card.
As a captain, especially as a captain of one of the stellar clubs i'd expect better conduct from him to be honest.

QB, Buenas Noches.
Tilton raised his questions with jpr, not me.
If you're asking me. No I don't hold with players waving cards. It's wrong.
I also don't hold with diving or feigning injury but all that has become part of the English game, unfortunately.
If the authorities don't stamp it out, then more players will go with the flow.
Having watched football for many years and seen the most successful captains in the game, they've all had that edge that you hate unless they're the captain of your own succeessful club.
So I hope you grow to REALLY dislike Cesc, then I'll love him even more. So, yes I do have a problem with the card thing but beyond that I have no issues with him at all. I'm delighted he's captain of The Arsenal.

jak wrote:QB, Buenas Noches.
Tilton raised his questions with jpr, not me.
If you're asking me. No I don't hold with players waving cards. It's wrong.
I also don't hold with diving or feigning injury but all that has become part of the English game, unfortunately.
If the authorities don't stamp it out, then more players will go with the flow.
Having watched football for many years and seen the most successful captains in the game, they've all had that edge that you hate unless they're the captain of your own succeessful club.
So I hope you grow to REALLY dislike Cesc, then I'll love him even more. So, yes I do have a problem with the card thing but beyond that I have no issues with him at all. I'm delighted he's captain of The Arsenal.

That surprises me Jak to be honest.I admired Tony Adams, Stuart Pearce,Bryan Robson.As i'm sure you admired Moore and McLintock .All tremendous leaders who commanded respect from teammates, opponents and fans.Fabregas' trap lets him down.ie his comments about Ipswich were disgraceful as was what he said to Mark Hughes a few years ago.Roy Keane was a great skipper but he lost of lot admiration the day he went ballistic at Andy D'urso.

QBVILLA wrote:

jak wrote:QB, Buenas Noches.
Tilton raised his questions with jpr, not me.
If you're asking me. No I don't hold with players waving cards. It's wrong.
I also don't hold with diving or feigning injury but all that has become part of the English game, unfortunately.
If the authorities don't stamp it out, then more players will go with the flow.
Having watched football for many years and seen the most successful captains in the game, they've all had that edge that you hate unless they're the captain of your own succeessful club.
So I hope you grow to REALLY dislike Cesc, then I'll love him even more. So, yes I do have a problem with the card thing but beyond that I have no issues with him at all. I'm delighted he's captain of The Arsenal.

That surprises me Jak to be honest.I admired Tony Adams, Stuart Pearce,Bryan Robson.As i'm sure you admired Moore and McLintock .All tremendous leaders who commanded respect from teammates, opponents and fans.Fabregas' trap lets him down.ie his comments about Ipswich were disgraceful as was what he said to Mark Hughes a few years ago.Roy Keane was a great skipper but he lost of lot admiration the day he went ballistic at Andy D'urso.

I hated Robson, Pearce and particularly Roy Keane. I don't admire them at all. So I guess that makes my point.
Whilst we're on it, there's no bigger shit in football than Mark Hughes so whatever Fabregas said to him, I'd be able to improve on.
I did like Moore but the games moved on a lot since then.
As for McLintock and Adams. Where's the heart emote?